We are all caught up in filling our studios with these antiquated machines. Sure they can be acquired cheaply, but the time spent on getting them up and running has to count for something. Then there is the "upgrading". We're just upgrading an old machine with another old machine. What's up with that?
We are collecting these old machines because for the most part we haven't had any experience on new (high quality I'm not talking grizzly) machines. I think we might be sticking to what we know, and I don't like it. it's like a guy that listen to 70's rock because he grew up with and completely dismisses anything new. Or someone who drives a ford and will only drive a ford, yet has never tried driving a chevy or a toyota. Let's open our minds. There is a lot of new technology out there in the world of machinery and we are throwing a blind eye at it. I would love to have a healy coil cutter head with disposable knives, imagine not having to fuss around changing knives. the old machines are pain in the rear.
I know I can't afford a SCMI jointer with a heli-cioil cutterhead, but if I had to choose between an oliver with straight knives that are a pain to set up and a an SCMI with disposables. That a no brainer. And i don't want to hear any of that crap about the castings now don't compare to the ones back then, it all depends on who the manufacturer is. All I'm saying is taht ther have been some advances made and we should acknoewledge them.
We have to stop and think about why we are using the machines we are using. You can say fixing up an old machine is hobby and i enjoy doing it. But if it cuts into your time working and keeping your business going, then you have a problem. it is no longer cost effective.
i will continue my rambling some other time, thanks, joël
antique or state of the art
Moderator: crzypete
This is a post that is quite hard to respond to. Part of your post deals with choice and that is a very personal thing. Part of it deals with efficiency in terms of how we work, also very personal. Part of it deals with being open minded and that is very appropriate to all of us. Contemplating how we work, what we make and how we enjoy it can only make us better in every aspect of our professional lives.
In the end it has very little to do with who makes our machines or how hard they are to maintain, it is about how we feel about them. For example you identify setting jointer knives as an issue. I am sure that you could purchase a disposable knife system for your Oliver that will allow you to set up once and then drop in new knives. As you said there is alot of new technology out there.
In the end it has very little to do with who makes our machines or how hard they are to maintain, it is about how we feel about them. For example you identify setting jointer knives as an issue. I am sure that you could purchase a disposable knife system for your Oliver that will allow you to set up once and then drop in new knives. As you said there is alot of new technology out there.
Many questions and thoughts to answer here.
New VS Old: I think many of the better new machines are more geared at the shops which make money now- ie cabinet and production shops. there is no question that the sliding table saws timesavers and edgebanders are great machines- and the newer ones are in better shape than the older ones. I think a lot of what we do is more like patternmaking- Pattermaking and furniture had it's heyday 40-100 years ago. Many of the machines produced between the late thirties and the mid sixties were/are ideally suited to what we do. Also it is not the quality of the metal in the castings it is the amount. The price of cast iron is much higher today (less patternmakers
for one) and manufacturers have scaled down to more cost effective construction methods.
Innovation: Yup there are some great new innovations. I love my carbide table saw blades, they are definitely worth the expense. There are other new machines That I would lovee to welcome into my shop. Sign me up for a martin panel slider and a nice new timesaver tomorrow (they are free right?).
Tersa cutterheads? is that what you were talking about? I don't think they are economically worth it for a one man shop. The initial expense is high, and I think the disposable blades need changing more frequently. I think they make a lot of sense in shops where blades get changed monthly, or where a lot of questionable material is run through that would often destroy a set of knives. Helical heads- same thing- I found the one on the Northfield at RIT produuced a lesser finish than the standard straight bladed cutterhead......until you upped the feed to a much higher rate then it outperformed it- therfore in a production environment where you ar trying to run as much wood through a planer that is running full shifts everyday it is a no brainer, but it seems that in a small shop it would be hard to make it cost effective. How frequently do you change your knives?
New Technology: I think the reality of new innovation is that the two biggest inventions in the 20th century were the ballbearing (I believe circa 1917) and the CNC (circa late seventies to mid eighties). Damn there is a lot of time between those two. You refer to our machines as "antiquated" I think of machines without innovation #1 as antiquated- babbitt bearing machines are antiquated. Otherwise there just haven't been that many inventions to antiquate them. It is our professions that are antiquated, we do not make the type of work that is best served by the newer technologies. Sign me up for a cnc today. I would love to have one and I am pretty sure I could use it to make my work, I don't think I could make it pay for itself though. It's just not the nature of my work.
Intagibles: For one aesthetics. I like the older machines in terms of design, any one can put an ugly piece of furniture in their house and anyone can put an ugly machine in their shop. My business is based on surrounding people with beautiful objects, and my shop is an area that I like to surround myself with objects that are beautiful to me.
Price: I do not think you can buy compareable machine for compareable prices, even if you pay yourself well for a good rebuild job. Machine makers made some big mistakes in the golden age- they didn't learn from detroit- they made machines that would last too long, this is a good way to saturate a market. a good rebuild on a machine from that era can take you through another fifty years of service, I'm pretty sure some of the newer machines will not last that long- they are learning from the automakers in detroit- build something that will wear out so customers have to buy again. The bandsaw in your shop is still being made. I think you paid around $1000 dollas for it. It cost $20,000 new. tell me when you have $19000 of time into it...... the reality is that these machines are selling for pennies on the dollar comapred to what they are worth.
Another take, don't want to rebuild, have excess cash, buy a rebuilt machine- still way less than new and avoids the time spent rebuilding, me personally, I enjoy the time spent rebuilding, anmd I don't yet have the income to afford those rebuilt machines.
I could go on, but I think I have said enough for now
pete
New VS Old: I think many of the better new machines are more geared at the shops which make money now- ie cabinet and production shops. there is no question that the sliding table saws timesavers and edgebanders are great machines- and the newer ones are in better shape than the older ones. I think a lot of what we do is more like patternmaking- Pattermaking and furniture had it's heyday 40-100 years ago. Many of the machines produced between the late thirties and the mid sixties were/are ideally suited to what we do. Also it is not the quality of the metal in the castings it is the amount. The price of cast iron is much higher today (less patternmakers
for one) and manufacturers have scaled down to more cost effective construction methods.Innovation: Yup there are some great new innovations. I love my carbide table saw blades, they are definitely worth the expense. There are other new machines That I would lovee to welcome into my shop. Sign me up for a martin panel slider and a nice new timesaver tomorrow (they are free right?).
Tersa cutterheads? is that what you were talking about? I don't think they are economically worth it for a one man shop. The initial expense is high, and I think the disposable blades need changing more frequently. I think they make a lot of sense in shops where blades get changed monthly, or where a lot of questionable material is run through that would often destroy a set of knives. Helical heads- same thing- I found the one on the Northfield at RIT produuced a lesser finish than the standard straight bladed cutterhead......until you upped the feed to a much higher rate then it outperformed it- therfore in a production environment where you ar trying to run as much wood through a planer that is running full shifts everyday it is a no brainer, but it seems that in a small shop it would be hard to make it cost effective. How frequently do you change your knives?
New Technology: I think the reality of new innovation is that the two biggest inventions in the 20th century were the ballbearing (I believe circa 1917) and the CNC (circa late seventies to mid eighties). Damn there is a lot of time between those two. You refer to our machines as "antiquated" I think of machines without innovation #1 as antiquated- babbitt bearing machines are antiquated. Otherwise there just haven't been that many inventions to antiquate them. It is our professions that are antiquated, we do not make the type of work that is best served by the newer technologies. Sign me up for a cnc today. I would love to have one and I am pretty sure I could use it to make my work, I don't think I could make it pay for itself though. It's just not the nature of my work.
Intagibles: For one aesthetics. I like the older machines in terms of design, any one can put an ugly piece of furniture in their house and anyone can put an ugly machine in their shop. My business is based on surrounding people with beautiful objects, and my shop is an area that I like to surround myself with objects that are beautiful to me.
Price: I do not think you can buy compareable machine for compareable prices, even if you pay yourself well for a good rebuild job. Machine makers made some big mistakes in the golden age- they didn't learn from detroit- they made machines that would last too long, this is a good way to saturate a market. a good rebuild on a machine from that era can take you through another fifty years of service, I'm pretty sure some of the newer machines will not last that long- they are learning from the automakers in detroit- build something that will wear out so customers have to buy again. The bandsaw in your shop is still being made. I think you paid around $1000 dollas for it. It cost $20,000 new. tell me when you have $19000 of time into it...... the reality is that these machines are selling for pennies on the dollar comapred to what they are worth.
Another take, don't want to rebuild, have excess cash, buy a rebuilt machine- still way less than new and avoids the time spent rebuilding, me personally, I enjoy the time spent rebuilding, anmd I don't yet have the income to afford those rebuilt machines.
I could go on, but I think I have said enough for now
pete
I agree whole heartedly. It seems like the manufacturers have gone two routes one supplying high end equipment for the big furniture manufacturers and cabinet shops and the other supplying flimsy equipment to the wanna be woodworkers. That leaves all the people in between high and dry.
As for how often I change my knives? Not often enough. As of this day I have two jointers in DESPERATE need of knife changing, one planer with so many knicks in the knives I'm considering creating a new surface treatment based on it, and a bandsaw with a tempermental brake. I guess I have been working so hard on getting ready for upcoming shows while working on my kitchen that I have let the maintenance of my shop go.
Now I'm paying for it and have wet dreams of just slipping new knives in all the cutter heads without having to take the time and fuss with them.
I would love to upgrade the oliver 2 knife cutter head with something nice. But that will never happen as long as it's in my shop.
As for how often I change my knives? Not often enough. As of this day I have two jointers in DESPERATE need of knife changing, one planer with so many knicks in the knives I'm considering creating a new surface treatment based on it, and a bandsaw with a tempermental brake. I guess I have been working so hard on getting ready for upcoming shows while working on my kitchen that I have let the maintenance of my shop go.
Now I'm paying for it and have wet dreams of just slipping new knives in all the cutter heads without having to take the time and fuss with them.
I would love to upgrade the oliver 2 knife cutter head with something nice. But that will never happen as long as it's in my shop.
I was thinking about new technology- or more specifically new designs- and came up with a machine that is well suited to us and is an improvement- The Oneway lathe. Except for the fact that it doesn't have a patternamkers carriage it is superior to older machines and seems to be well suited for our uses. Even the price is fairly reasonable- at least compared to other high end machines. I guess I would attribute this to the proliferation of turners and a company that actually rose to the occasion to fill a niche market.
Another Superior new candidate for me is the JDS Multi-Router- although I wish it were heavierand even more importantly larger, it seems extremely well suited for furniture/sculpture.
pete
Another Superior new candidate for me is the JDS Multi-Router- although I wish it were heavierand even more importantly larger, it seems extremely well suited for furniture/sculpture.
pete
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mr douglas t
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:58 pm
- Location: Westhampton, MA
- Contact:
I could not let this discussion go unanswered. Mr pete' point is a good one about purchasing older rebiult machines. I think there is a position for a machne dealer who does reputable rebuilds. Or how about a person who does not buy and sell machines, he only restores and rebuilds them. Send you jointer out to mr rebuild and he brings it back with a fancy cutterhead in it, all sharp and ready to go.. That thought I like. Or I buy a machine on ebay and have it first sent to mr rebuild... As for your dull knives.. Do as the Dodd does. Before a show, remove all the knives and sent them out to be sharpenned. When you get back, the first day in the shop you replace the knives.. It is not like you get anywork done anyway after returning from a show.