I need some advice on rebuilding my table saw.
I have a Tannewitz Type: U, 16” with a 5 HP Woods Shaftless Motor Code: G, Form: 202-932, Frame: 26.
I would like to replace the bearings, but I’m not sure how the motor comes apart.
Another problem is that the arbor was worn when I got the saw so that the blade has slop when put on. Once the stabilizer and nut are on, the blade doesn’t move but does have some up and down wobble because it is not perfectly concentric with the arbor. So I would like to get this fixed. I know it could be welded up and turned back down on a lathe, but how hard is this to do, is it something a competent machine shop could do, and how good will the results be?
The last thing is the blade being parallel to the miter slots. The tabletop has tapered pins aligning it to the cabinet, so there’s no adjustment there. The trunion bolts are fairly tight and when I first got the saw I had to grind down their diameter to get enough adjustment. It is close, but was wondering if there is something I’m missing.
Things have working all right up to now, but the bearings seem to be getting louder than they were. I imagine the arbor problem is putting a big strain on the bearings, and I’ve tried to help it with some adhesive backed copper tape burnished down until the blade fits snug. But it eventually wears thin and the blade is sloppy again. Anyway, it looks like after the current project, there will be some time and more importantly money to finally get it fixed right.
Any insight or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Stephen
Tannewitz U Tablesaw
Moderator: nektai
Re: Tannewitz U Tablesaw
Stephen,
The motor comes apart pretty easily on this saw. First remove the saw arbor. Remember that it's reverse thread. Once the arbor is removed, remove the front bearing cap. This will be held in place by 2 or 4 bolts or hex head screws. Once you have the cap off, remove the large bearing retaining nut and washer. Next remove the dust cover for the motor electrical connections. Make note of the connections and disconnect the wires. Now you can remove the fan cover from the back of the motor. This is held in place by four cap nuts. Once you have the cover off remove the fan. Next remove the rear bearing cap. Once again this is held in place by 2 to 4 bolts or hex head screws. Once you have the cap off remove the bearing retaining nut and washer. Now you can remove the rear motor housing. This is held in place by four nuts on the long screws that go through the winding. The long bolts may try to come out. If they do, take them to your vise and remove the nut. Then put the stud back in the winding. You'll need these to be in place when you remove the windings to keep everything lined up. You may have to use a large puller to remove the rear housing, but it'll usually come off with some gentle prying. Once the rear housing is removed, you can take the windings out. Now you'll be left with just the motor shaft in place. The shaft can be pushed out from the front. Make sure you have some one to keep it from falling while you're pushing on it. That'll leave just the front bearing to remove. You can knock the bearing out from the back using a long block of wood. Bearings for this motor are cheap, so I wouldn't even consider trying to salvage them. Reverse the steps for reassembly and you should be good to go.
I would simply replace the stub arbor. They usually sell for around $100. It would certainly cost more than that to turn and sleeve the one you have. I have four or five of them laying around.
I hope this helps.
The motor comes apart pretty easily on this saw. First remove the saw arbor. Remember that it's reverse thread. Once the arbor is removed, remove the front bearing cap. This will be held in place by 2 or 4 bolts or hex head screws. Once you have the cap off, remove the large bearing retaining nut and washer. Next remove the dust cover for the motor electrical connections. Make note of the connections and disconnect the wires. Now you can remove the fan cover from the back of the motor. This is held in place by four cap nuts. Once you have the cover off remove the fan. Next remove the rear bearing cap. Once again this is held in place by 2 to 4 bolts or hex head screws. Once you have the cap off remove the bearing retaining nut and washer. Now you can remove the rear motor housing. This is held in place by four nuts on the long screws that go through the winding. The long bolts may try to come out. If they do, take them to your vise and remove the nut. Then put the stud back in the winding. You'll need these to be in place when you remove the windings to keep everything lined up. You may have to use a large puller to remove the rear housing, but it'll usually come off with some gentle prying. Once the rear housing is removed, you can take the windings out. Now you'll be left with just the motor shaft in place. The shaft can be pushed out from the front. Make sure you have some one to keep it from falling while you're pushing on it. That'll leave just the front bearing to remove. You can knock the bearing out from the back using a long block of wood. Bearings for this motor are cheap, so I wouldn't even consider trying to salvage them. Reverse the steps for reassembly and you should be good to go.
I would simply replace the stub arbor. They usually sell for around $100. It would certainly cost more than that to turn and sleeve the one you have. I have four or five of them laying around.
I hope this helps.
Steve,
I have very little to add after a post like Arthur's.
I imagine that the blade is worth salvaging since you have been using it. I would send it to Forrest to be re-conditioned. If there is a problem with the blade being poorly bored I am sure they could address it. I am certain that it would save some money vs buying a new blade.
Keep us informed with Pictures and stories of this project. It sounds like fun.
I have very little to add after a post like Arthur's.
I imagine that the blade is worth salvaging since you have been using it. I would send it to Forrest to be re-conditioned. If there is a problem with the blade being poorly bored I am sure they could address it. I am certain that it would save some money vs buying a new blade.
Keep us informed with Pictures and stories of this project. It sounds like fun.
Thanks Arthur,
It sounds pretty straight forward. We’ll see how it goes when I actually get into it, and I’ll probably contact you about letting go of one of those stub arbors.
Nico, the worn part is not the arbor hole in the blade but the shaft on the motor (direct drive). My only guess as to how this happened is that someone finger tighten the nut and then turned the saw on to tighten it the rest of the way. This would have allowed the blade to spin on the shaft momentarily until it became tight. This is just a theory but it would’ve had to been done as SOP for it to be worn as much as it is.
I don't know how fun this will be. This is my only saw so I do need to do the job quickly, and I won’t have time to marvel at what an awesome machine this is and why don’t they make them like this now? As a side note, I did call Tannewitz to see if they would send me a manual. The guy on the phone said he couldn’t send me one and they don’t make that saw anymore because of liability issues. But he did comment that is was a great saw.
What WILL be fun is when I get it all fixed and it cuts like a dream. You know when you make that rip in 8/4 maple and the surface is perfect; no burn, no saw marks just shiny and smooth and ready for glue. The grin on my face will be ear to ear. Now THAT’S fun.
I’ll keep you posted.
Stephen
PS I edited this post because after reading it, I reallized I rambled a wee bit.
It sounds pretty straight forward. We’ll see how it goes when I actually get into it, and I’ll probably contact you about letting go of one of those stub arbors.
Nico, the worn part is not the arbor hole in the blade but the shaft on the motor (direct drive). My only guess as to how this happened is that someone finger tighten the nut and then turned the saw on to tighten it the rest of the way. This would have allowed the blade to spin on the shaft momentarily until it became tight. This is just a theory but it would’ve had to been done as SOP for it to be worn as much as it is.
I don't know how fun this will be. This is my only saw so I do need to do the job quickly, and I won’t have time to marvel at what an awesome machine this is and why don’t they make them like this now? As a side note, I did call Tannewitz to see if they would send me a manual. The guy on the phone said he couldn’t send me one and they don’t make that saw anymore because of liability issues. But he did comment that is was a great saw.
What WILL be fun is when I get it all fixed and it cuts like a dream. You know when you make that rip in 8/4 maple and the surface is perfect; no burn, no saw marks just shiny and smooth and ready for glue. The grin on my face will be ear to ear. Now THAT’S fun.
I’ll keep you posted.
Stephen
PS I edited this post because after reading it, I reallized I rambled a wee bit.
OK, I started tearing down the motor on the Tanny.
The stub arbor was a bear. Once I got a wrench on the square on the backside of the shaft and had it blocked against the underside of the table, I got a monster wrench on the arbor nut and pulled with everything I had, but it wouldn’t budge. Finally had to tap the wrench with a block and a sledge hammer. Unfortunately I had my dad pulling at the same time I was tapping, so when it finally broke loose, he went flying. It would’ve been funny if I wasn’t scared he broke a hip.
Here’s a shot of the stub arbor. You can see the copper tape I was using to make up the slop.
Arbor off and front bearing cap with grease fitting tube off. No bearing retaining nut as Arthur described, but I’m continuing undaunted. You can see what looks like a hole in the sleeve that the shaft sets in. There’s one directly opposite it on the other side. I don’t believe they go all the way through, just drilled partially into the sleeve. Not sure what they’re for, hopefully nothing that will impede my progress.
The backside of the motor with fan cover, fan and rear bearing cap off. Here’s the bearing nut it’s big 1 ¾”.
Here’s an interesting detail. A set screw in the nut.
I thought “Why would there be a set screw in this nut except to help hold the nut in place? Maybe the nut needs to be held in place because it isn’t that tight. If it isn’t that tight maybe I just need to hold it in place while rotating the shaft. I need a special tool to hold the nut!” This is where I say yabba-dabba-do. Don’t laugh, you know you’ve done it. Anyway, here’s my Flinstone tool. Of course it didn’t work. The nut just ripped through the shoulders in my plywood wrench.
I looked online for a wrench that would get this nut off. I found one at Proto that has an offset to go into the bearing cavity. $81.00. Ouch, it’s yabba-dabba-do time again. I’ve got some scrap steel and a wire welder, I can make my own wrench! I’ll keep you posted.
One thing that puzzles me is the bearing shields on the bearings. There are grease fittings and tubes that go to both the front and back bearing cavities. With the shields in place no grease gets to the bearings, and just packs up inside the cavity. Right? Any way I’ll take off the grease side shield on the new bearings, unless someone can advise me differently.
The stub arbor was a bear. Once I got a wrench on the square on the backside of the shaft and had it blocked against the underside of the table, I got a monster wrench on the arbor nut and pulled with everything I had, but it wouldn’t budge. Finally had to tap the wrench with a block and a sledge hammer. Unfortunately I had my dad pulling at the same time I was tapping, so when it finally broke loose, he went flying. It would’ve been funny if I wasn’t scared he broke a hip.
Here’s a shot of the stub arbor. You can see the copper tape I was using to make up the slop.
Arbor off and front bearing cap with grease fitting tube off. No bearing retaining nut as Arthur described, but I’m continuing undaunted. You can see what looks like a hole in the sleeve that the shaft sets in. There’s one directly opposite it on the other side. I don’t believe they go all the way through, just drilled partially into the sleeve. Not sure what they’re for, hopefully nothing that will impede my progress.
The backside of the motor with fan cover, fan and rear bearing cap off. Here’s the bearing nut it’s big 1 ¾”.
Here’s an interesting detail. A set screw in the nut.
I thought “Why would there be a set screw in this nut except to help hold the nut in place? Maybe the nut needs to be held in place because it isn’t that tight. If it isn’t that tight maybe I just need to hold it in place while rotating the shaft. I need a special tool to hold the nut!” This is where I say yabba-dabba-do. Don’t laugh, you know you’ve done it. Anyway, here’s my Flinstone tool. Of course it didn’t work. The nut just ripped through the shoulders in my plywood wrench.
I looked online for a wrench that would get this nut off. I found one at Proto that has an offset to go into the bearing cavity. $81.00. Ouch, it’s yabba-dabba-do time again. I’ve got some scrap steel and a wire welder, I can make my own wrench! I’ll keep you posted.
One thing that puzzles me is the bearing shields on the bearings. There are grease fittings and tubes that go to both the front and back bearing cavities. With the shields in place no grease gets to the bearings, and just packs up inside the cavity. Right? Any way I’ll take off the grease side shield on the new bearings, unless someone can advise me differently.
Hi Steve, This looks similar to my tanny bandsaw- It actually is a nut that you need a special wrench to get off- I bored out a piece of aluminum to fit the diameter, I drilled two holes to accept pins and then milled flats to put a wrench on it. If my special wrench would fit yours I'd be happy to mail it to you. ALso I believe I bought a 1 3/4" socket for the same job. I can doublecheck the measure, but I would be happy to lend that as well- although it is probably not deep enough to remedy your problem.swparish wrote:
Arbor off and front bearing cap with grease fitting tube off. No bearing retaining nut as Arthur described, but I’m continuing undaunted. You can see what looks like a hole in the sleeve that the shaft sets in. There’s one directly opposite it on the other side. I don’t believe they go all the way through, just drilled partially into the sleeve. Not sure what they’re for, hopefully nothing that will impede my progress.
Anyway, Thanks for the detailed pictures and progress report- very interesting work.
Pete
Hey Pete, thanks for the advice. I finished my new and improved Flinstone tool and it worked like a champ.
Here is the original and the upgrade, you can see the superior craftsmanship and the offending nut.
I might see about getting your tool, but now I’m on a high over my current success so I’ll see if I can fabricate something using your design. I’m not sure if yours would work. I need the flats to stick out far enough into the blade area so I can get a wrench on them. The ID needs to be 2 1/8”.
By the way, any thoughts on the whole shield issue? I had the same thing on my Oliver 166 jointer when I replace the bearings.
Here is the original and the upgrade, you can see the superior craftsmanship and the offending nut.
I might see about getting your tool, but now I’m on a high over my current success so I’ll see if I can fabricate something using your design. I’m not sure if yours would work. I need the flats to stick out far enough into the blade area so I can get a wrench on them. The ID needs to be 2 1/8”.
By the way, any thoughts on the whole shield issue? I had the same thing on my Oliver 166 jointer when I replace the bearings.
Firstly let me say I am very impressed with the second incarnation of the wrench- a very nice makeshift tool.
You should be able to drive the shaft out before removing the locking ring. This might make access to the ring easier.
Here are two pics of my wrench- The pins are socket head cap screws which aren't tapped in place, but in hind site that might have been a better way.
Pete
You should be able to drive the shaft out before removing the locking ring. This might make access to the ring easier.
Here are two pics of my wrench- The pins are socket head cap screws which aren't tapped in place, but in hind site that might have been a better way.
Pete
Great minds…
Pete, your tool is what I would’ve made if I had a lathe. I had already thought of the threaded aspect of the bolts. Anyway, here’s the story:
I took a trip to Lowes and rummaged around in their plumbing and electrical depts. putting my tape measure on anything close to the right ID. I finally found a 2” electrical conduit compression coupler that looked like it might work. When I brought it back it fit like a glove. There was a little lip inside that wouldn’t let it slide all the way on, but a half round file took care of that. The next step was to drill holes corsponding to the holes in the nut. I ground the area flat where the holes were to go to keep the drill bit straight and get past the galvanized coating.
I decided since the pipe I was using was so thin walled that I would use nuts to support my allen bolts. I also ground off the tapered end of the bolts to allow them to seat better in the nut hole.
Next was to line up my bolts with the nut holes. I don’t have any machining equipment, so I knew I would have to use the nut itself as a reference. I wanted to have some wiggle room, so I drill the holes in the conduit larger than the allen bolt going through them. After sliding the conduit onto the nut and lining up the holes, I set the nut with the allen bolt through it into the nut hole resting on the flats I ground. I could have tack welded it here, but I didn’t want welding splatter inside my tablesaw. The solution was a couple of dabs of epoxy on the nuts, holding them in place so I could loosen the allen bolts, slide everything off and weld the nuts onto the conduit.
I decided that I wouldn’t go the trouble to put flats or something else that I could get a regular wrench on. Since everything is round I’d see if a pipe wrench would work. I found a piece of pipe that fit into the conduit and would stick out into the blade area so I could get the pipe wrench on it. After welding the conduit and pipe together, it’s show time. Here it is with the nuts welded on, but before the extension pipe.
Here’s the set up with the extension pipe welded on.
The show was a flop. In the process of welding on the nuts the conduit warped a little, making the fit pretty tight. On the first attempt I didn’t have the bolts in the holes so things just turned on the nut. Once I got the bolts in the holes, I couldn’t get all my strength behind it because the pipe that I used was pretty thin walled so the pipe wrench kept slipping as the pipe would deform. Also, one or the nuts wasn’t welded on as good as I needed, and it came off. Here you see the damage.
Now I need to regroup and decide if I need to just repair and beef up what I’ve got, or take another direction.
Pete, your tool is what I would’ve made if I had a lathe. I had already thought of the threaded aspect of the bolts. Anyway, here’s the story:
I took a trip to Lowes and rummaged around in their plumbing and electrical depts. putting my tape measure on anything close to the right ID. I finally found a 2” electrical conduit compression coupler that looked like it might work. When I brought it back it fit like a glove. There was a little lip inside that wouldn’t let it slide all the way on, but a half round file took care of that. The next step was to drill holes corsponding to the holes in the nut. I ground the area flat where the holes were to go to keep the drill bit straight and get past the galvanized coating.
I decided since the pipe I was using was so thin walled that I would use nuts to support my allen bolts. I also ground off the tapered end of the bolts to allow them to seat better in the nut hole.
Next was to line up my bolts with the nut holes. I don’t have any machining equipment, so I knew I would have to use the nut itself as a reference. I wanted to have some wiggle room, so I drill the holes in the conduit larger than the allen bolt going through them. After sliding the conduit onto the nut and lining up the holes, I set the nut with the allen bolt through it into the nut hole resting on the flats I ground. I could have tack welded it here, but I didn’t want welding splatter inside my tablesaw. The solution was a couple of dabs of epoxy on the nuts, holding them in place so I could loosen the allen bolts, slide everything off and weld the nuts onto the conduit.
I decided that I wouldn’t go the trouble to put flats or something else that I could get a regular wrench on. Since everything is round I’d see if a pipe wrench would work. I found a piece of pipe that fit into the conduit and would stick out into the blade area so I could get the pipe wrench on it. After welding the conduit and pipe together, it’s show time. Here it is with the nuts welded on, but before the extension pipe.
Here’s the set up with the extension pipe welded on.
The show was a flop. In the process of welding on the nuts the conduit warped a little, making the fit pretty tight. On the first attempt I didn’t have the bolts in the holes so things just turned on the nut. Once I got the bolts in the holes, I couldn’t get all my strength behind it because the pipe that I used was pretty thin walled so the pipe wrench kept slipping as the pipe would deform. Also, one or the nuts wasn’t welded on as good as I needed, and it came off. Here you see the damage.
Now I need to regroup and decide if I need to just repair and beef up what I’ve got, or take another direction.
OK, I’ve decided to take a new direction. I’ve decided that the pipe only serves to support the pins, and really provides no force in itself to the nut. So what I really need to do is provide massive support to the pins.
To this end, I decided that the nut the pin was threading through was not enough. So I got a coupler nut to provide additional support and get rid of any slop. I put the two coupler nuts on a piece of all thread to maintain alignment and proper distance between them. Then welded them onto the “Y” I made of ¼” plate steel. Here’s the result.
Here’s the set up on the saw. The end of the “Y” rest against the underside of the table while I turn the square nut on the back of the shaft in the appropriate direction.
OK. This isn’t working. The new tool I made works great. It’s rock solid with not any budge. I put everything I had on the square nut, even got a 4 foot cheater pipe on the wrench. Nothing. No movement at all. Everything is exactly as it was.
The only thing I can think of as to why this isn’t working is either this is not in fact a nut or it’s reverse thread. Neither of these makes sense. So the plan at this point is some penetrating oil overnight and a little heat on the nut to maybe break it loose.
Any suggestions are welcome. I’m having trouble seeing through all the blood getting my eyes from beating my head against this wall.
To this end, I decided that the nut the pin was threading through was not enough. So I got a coupler nut to provide additional support and get rid of any slop. I put the two coupler nuts on a piece of all thread to maintain alignment and proper distance between them. Then welded them onto the “Y” I made of ¼” plate steel. Here’s the result.
Here’s the set up on the saw. The end of the “Y” rest against the underside of the table while I turn the square nut on the back of the shaft in the appropriate direction.
OK. This isn’t working. The new tool I made works great. It’s rock solid with not any budge. I put everything I had on the square nut, even got a 4 foot cheater pipe on the wrench. Nothing. No movement at all. Everything is exactly as it was.
The only thing I can think of as to why this isn’t working is either this is not in fact a nut or it’s reverse thread. Neither of these makes sense. So the plan at this point is some penetrating oil overnight and a little heat on the nut to maybe break it loose.
Any suggestions are welcome. I’m having trouble seeing through all the blood getting my eyes from beating my head against this wall.
Steve, Firstly, really nice wrench. Take two seems to be the solution with your custom tools.
Two thoughts on your problem.
1. Good chance it is a left hand thread- I know my tanny had one. You might examine closely- sometimes you can see the start of the threads peering through and determine which way it should be unscrewed.
2. Instead of using a cheater, try a hammer on your wrench the quick blows give a better breaking power.
Your thought of heat is a good one as well- It is amazing how much help even a little propane torch can be.
Pete
Two thoughts on your problem.
1. Good chance it is a left hand thread- I know my tanny had one. You might examine closely- sometimes you can see the start of the threads peering through and determine which way it should be unscrewed.
2. Instead of using a cheater, try a hammer on your wrench the quick blows give a better breaking power.
Your thought of heat is a good one as well- It is amazing how much help even a little propane torch can be.
Pete
Steve,
The nut should be the same thread direction as your stub arbor and blade nut. It's probably had some loc-tite put on it. Try heating it up. It migt seem counter-intuitive, but also try tightening it a bit. Pete is also right about the hammer. Try giving it a good smack. The only thing that could get damaged is your custom wrench.
When you get your new bearings buy a set that has two rubber shields. remove the outside shield. This will let the bearing get grease and still keep the inside of the motor clean.
The nut should be the same thread direction as your stub arbor and blade nut. It's probably had some loc-tite put on it. Try heating it up. It migt seem counter-intuitive, but also try tightening it a bit. Pete is also right about the hammer. Try giving it a good smack. The only thing that could get damaged is your custom wrench.
When you get your new bearings buy a set that has two rubber shields. remove the outside shield. This will let the bearing get grease and still keep the inside of the motor clean.
You were right Pete. I got out the magnifying glass and a bright light, crawled into the cabinet and it appears as though they are left handed threads. After thinking about it, it would make sense considering that the stub arbor butts up against it and it’s reverse threads. If they were regular threads, as you tightened the abor, it would try to loosen the nut.
Here we go. New info and I’m revitalized. So with the “special” tool I made put on the other way, I’m ready to go. I put the wrench on the square on the back of the shaft and beat on it with a hammer. It reminded me of my days in little league baseball when I would hit the ball on the end of the bat. That jarring sting brought back memories of really sucking at baseball because I was always scarred of someone throwing a ball at me as hard as they could. Anyway my therapist and I have worked through it and I realize now, that it doesn’t affect who I am as an adult…
Anyway, so I’m beating on this wrench and nothing’s happening. Finally something gives. I’m excited, could all this work have finally paid off? I try to loosen it some more but nothing. I take a look at the tool and realize that one of the welds to the coupler nut has broken loose. SHIIIIIIITT!!! It’s time for the torch. After I rewelded the coupler nut, I propped the propane torch so the flame is on the nut and slowly rotate the shaft so as to insure even heating. Then it’s back to the beating. Still nothing.
So I decide that the torch isn’t heating it fast enough and the shaft is getting hot too. If they’re both getting hot at the same rate then I’m not getting the differential in temperature that I’m wanting to loosen the nut. What can I use to get this differential? Well, since I don’t have a hotter torch, I need to get things colder. I don’t have access to freon or liquid nitrogen, but there is a store in town that sells dry ice.
So I go get ten pounds of dry ice. The plan is to pack the stub arbor in dry ice and screw it back onto the shaft. The cold of the ice should transfer through the arbor and into the shaft. Then heat the nut again.
Here’s the set up. The cardboard box is full of dry ice.
Here’s the results. Instead of the weld breaking the pin actually bent and broke out the coupler nut.
Now I’m really at my wits end. I can’t imagine the kind of force that was required to all but shear this pin. I’m going to try the torch some more and see if I can get it hotter. That coupled with sticking the stub arbor in dry ice and then screwing it on to try and draw the heat out of the shaft is my only idea. I’m leery of getting the shaft so hot that I start to melt the insulation on the windings of the stator. If this still doesn’t work I’m getting out the grinder. This has become an epic battle and I’m going to slay this dragon one way or another.
Thanks Arthur. That’s what I assumed about the bearings, but needed confirmation from someone. Up until now I have been tightening it because I thought they were right handed threads.
Here we go. New info and I’m revitalized. So with the “special” tool I made put on the other way, I’m ready to go. I put the wrench on the square on the back of the shaft and beat on it with a hammer. It reminded me of my days in little league baseball when I would hit the ball on the end of the bat. That jarring sting brought back memories of really sucking at baseball because I was always scarred of someone throwing a ball at me as hard as they could. Anyway my therapist and I have worked through it and I realize now, that it doesn’t affect who I am as an adult…
Anyway, so I’m beating on this wrench and nothing’s happening. Finally something gives. I’m excited, could all this work have finally paid off? I try to loosen it some more but nothing. I take a look at the tool and realize that one of the welds to the coupler nut has broken loose. SHIIIIIIITT!!! It’s time for the torch. After I rewelded the coupler nut, I propped the propane torch so the flame is on the nut and slowly rotate the shaft so as to insure even heating. Then it’s back to the beating. Still nothing.
So I decide that the torch isn’t heating it fast enough and the shaft is getting hot too. If they’re both getting hot at the same rate then I’m not getting the differential in temperature that I’m wanting to loosen the nut. What can I use to get this differential? Well, since I don’t have a hotter torch, I need to get things colder. I don’t have access to freon or liquid nitrogen, but there is a store in town that sells dry ice.
So I go get ten pounds of dry ice. The plan is to pack the stub arbor in dry ice and screw it back onto the shaft. The cold of the ice should transfer through the arbor and into the shaft. Then heat the nut again.
Here’s the set up. The cardboard box is full of dry ice.
Here’s the results. Instead of the weld breaking the pin actually bent and broke out the coupler nut.
Now I’m really at my wits end. I can’t imagine the kind of force that was required to all but shear this pin. I’m going to try the torch some more and see if I can get it hotter. That coupled with sticking the stub arbor in dry ice and then screwing it on to try and draw the heat out of the shaft is my only idea. I’m leery of getting the shaft so hot that I start to melt the insulation on the windings of the stator. If this still doesn’t work I’m getting out the grinder. This has become an epic battle and I’m going to slay this dragon one way or another.
Thanks Arthur. That’s what I assumed about the bearings, but needed confirmation from someone. Up until now I have been tightening it because I thought they were right handed threads.
wow! What an epic battle. I can't wait to hear who wins. This is becoming a soap opera.
The only advice I have might be to add some penetrating oil in between heatings- Sometimes the heat helps it soak in
Also make triple sure you are rotating the correct way- when you work in tight places it can sometimes be confusing.
Any chance of using a impact wrench instead of your open-end wrnech- the bumping action can be convincing.
Lastly, perhaps you should remove the motor from the saw. This might not actually help in terms of there would be nothing for your wrench to bear against, but perhaps more of the motor could come apart.
Pete
The only advice I have might be to add some penetrating oil in between heatings- Sometimes the heat helps it soak in
Also make triple sure you are rotating the correct way- when you work in tight places it can sometimes be confusing.
Any chance of using a impact wrench instead of your open-end wrnech- the bumping action can be convincing.
Lastly, perhaps you should remove the motor from the saw. This might not actually help in terms of there would be nothing for your wrench to bear against, but perhaps more of the motor could come apart.
Pete
Steve,
The following is not speculation. I've actually had to do this a few times. Rest assured that it will work. Take a small pipe wrench (of good quality). Lock it on the nut and wedge it up against the casting. Get the wrench as far back on the nut as you can. Get a large crescent wrench. Put it on the square end of the shaft. Get a piece of pipe on it for leverage. I have a large crescent wrench with a tapered handle. It works great in these situations. Apply the heat again for a few minutes and turn the motor shaft from the square end. You can get a lot more leverage from that end. The nut will come off. Just verify that you're turning it in the right direction. You're going to put a few marks in the nut. Don't be concerned. you can smooth them out later. Your grease seal rides on the front edge of this nut, so try to avoid that area with the wrench. Once again, even if you do mark it up a bit it really won't matter since it's grease (not oil). Also, if you're using sealed for life bearings, it won't matter at all since you'll be capping the zerks. In my opinion, sealed for life bearing of good quality are fine for any non-production application. If you're not running this saw 5x8, you can use sealed for life bearings.
Pete, on taking the motor out.... I don't recommend that. This would involve removing the entire elevation assembly, since the front half of the motor is cast into that part. This involves removal of the table. Once again, something I would only do in extreme situations.
The following is not speculation. I've actually had to do this a few times. Rest assured that it will work. Take a small pipe wrench (of good quality). Lock it on the nut and wedge it up against the casting. Get the wrench as far back on the nut as you can. Get a large crescent wrench. Put it on the square end of the shaft. Get a piece of pipe on it for leverage. I have a large crescent wrench with a tapered handle. It works great in these situations. Apply the heat again for a few minutes and turn the motor shaft from the square end. You can get a lot more leverage from that end. The nut will come off. Just verify that you're turning it in the right direction. You're going to put a few marks in the nut. Don't be concerned. you can smooth them out later. Your grease seal rides on the front edge of this nut, so try to avoid that area with the wrench. Once again, even if you do mark it up a bit it really won't matter since it's grease (not oil). Also, if you're using sealed for life bearings, it won't matter at all since you'll be capping the zerks. In my opinion, sealed for life bearing of good quality are fine for any non-production application. If you're not running this saw 5x8, you can use sealed for life bearings.
Pete, on taking the motor out.... I don't recommend that. This would involve removing the entire elevation assembly, since the front half of the motor is cast into that part. This involves removal of the table. Once again, something I would only do in extreme situations.
Steve,
One other point. The nut should never be that tight. It should just bottom out against the inner race of the bearing. That's why that type of nut is used. It's only purpose is to ensure the shaft can't travel back and forth. Unfortunately, the common practice is to push the bearing onto the shaft with the nut. This is done when you're replacing the front bearing only in a service situation. Because this is done blind, there is a tendency to overtighten the nut. I always put the bearing on the shaft with the nut and then push the bearing into the motor housing. When I assemble these motors, I alway test run them with the ends off the motor to check for play. I would put loc-tite on the nut and then snug it down.
One other point. The nut should never be that tight. It should just bottom out against the inner race of the bearing. That's why that type of nut is used. It's only purpose is to ensure the shaft can't travel back and forth. Unfortunately, the common practice is to push the bearing onto the shaft with the nut. This is done when you're replacing the front bearing only in a service situation. Because this is done blind, there is a tendency to overtighten the nut. I always put the bearing on the shaft with the nut and then push the bearing into the motor housing. When I assemble these motors, I alway test run them with the ends off the motor to check for play. I would put loc-tite on the nut and then snug it down.
Stay tuned for another episode of “As The Nut Turns”, where today we will rejoin Stephen in his quest to loosen the front bearing nut from his tablesaw. Will he succeed or will his nemesis drive him to a fetal position, sobbing like a baby on his shop floor?
OK, I read the replies and this is what I did.
I decided to try the heat and cold arbor as stated before. This time I kept the torch on the nut for thirty minutes instead of the ten before. I kept the arbor in a bucket of dry ice and after setting there for thirty minutes slowly rotating the shaft to insure even heating, I installed my rebuilt tool and screwed on the arbor. Then put the wrench back on the square end of the shaft and whacked it with a hammer, stirring up all those painful memories. Once again nothing.
After feeling of the nut and deciding if I could touch it, it wasn’t getting hot enough, I looked for more heat. I called my brother in law to see if his acetylene set up was working and could he bring it over. Well, he couldn’t remember if he had oxygen and he was at work anyway so I’d have to wait until he got off. He did suggest I look into a MAPP torch because it burns hotter than propane. So off to the hardware store I go, because I want this nut off now and I’m not waiting until he gets off just to find out he doesn’t have any oxygen. I found a two bottle system with MAPP and oxygen that the package says you can cut metal with. Surely this will get things hot enough.
I’m determined now. I’m going to show it whose boss and get this thing glowing if I can. So, I put the tool on first this time because I’ve decided that the time it takes to install it, the nut is cooling off. After a little learning curve to get the flame just right, I’m heating her up. Things are going great. I feel like a real welder without the cute little hat. Things are getting hot. I can see the grease bubbling out from the bearing and in a little while it starts to smoke. I trying to move the torch around to get even heat, but when the bearing shield starts to glow no matter where I put the torch, I decide it’s hot enough. Back with the wrench and this time a cheater bar. My dad’s on the bar while I watching things waiting for some movement. He tells me something is giving, but I can’t see the nut turning. Then I see that my coupler nut is beginning to break out just like the last time (see above post).
I’m pissed. I get the hammer and beat on the wrench until the pin finally shears off. OK, I’ve tried to be elegant and sophisticated and do this with the right tool, or some facsimile thereof. Arthur your method may not be elegant, but I’ll concede that if you want brute force, a pipe wrench and a cheater bar is the way to go. So I find my shortest pipe wrench and after dressing the teeth with a file to be sure they bite, I’m ready to give the brute force method a try. It took a little finagling to get the square nut in the right position and the pipe wrench locked onto the nut, but once we got it, we assumed our positions. Dad on the bar and me watching to see if anything moves. Well…
ARTHUR, YOU THE MAN !!!
Here it is. The sorry SOB that has been driving me crazy for the last three days. You can see how beat up the holes are from the pins, and the marks from the pipe wrench. But most importantly you can see that it is off.
So now I pull off the back end of the motor. It didn’t come lose from the armature, and both came off at once. It was then that I saw the mess. Evidently at some point in time grease had been getting past the bearings, probably before the current bearings were put in. This thing is full of grease. In fact when I pulled off the armature it sounded like you were pulling your foot out of the mud. Here’s what it looked like inside.
Here’s what the stator and shaft looked like.
Here’s the front motor housing.
The rear motor housing.
The armature.
Here’s the front bearing. You can see it got a little toasty from the heat.
This thing’s a mess. I bet I pulled five pounds of grease out. Something’s telling me this motor wasn’t running at it’s most efficient.
So, here’s the summary. I don’t know what exactly got the nut off. It could have been the heat, the dry ice, the pipe wrench, or a combination of these. But the pipe wrench was on when it finally broke loose so, Arthur, you get the credit.
As for the grease thing. This has convinced me that I don’t want to risk this again, so I’m going with Arthur’s suggestion of putting sealed for life bearings.
At this point, I hope all the drama is over. I just need to clean up and put it back together with new bearings. I’ll keep you posted with pictures and progress reports.
OK, I read the replies and this is what I did.
I decided to try the heat and cold arbor as stated before. This time I kept the torch on the nut for thirty minutes instead of the ten before. I kept the arbor in a bucket of dry ice and after setting there for thirty minutes slowly rotating the shaft to insure even heating, I installed my rebuilt tool and screwed on the arbor. Then put the wrench back on the square end of the shaft and whacked it with a hammer, stirring up all those painful memories. Once again nothing.
After feeling of the nut and deciding if I could touch it, it wasn’t getting hot enough, I looked for more heat. I called my brother in law to see if his acetylene set up was working and could he bring it over. Well, he couldn’t remember if he had oxygen and he was at work anyway so I’d have to wait until he got off. He did suggest I look into a MAPP torch because it burns hotter than propane. So off to the hardware store I go, because I want this nut off now and I’m not waiting until he gets off just to find out he doesn’t have any oxygen. I found a two bottle system with MAPP and oxygen that the package says you can cut metal with. Surely this will get things hot enough.
I’m determined now. I’m going to show it whose boss and get this thing glowing if I can. So, I put the tool on first this time because I’ve decided that the time it takes to install it, the nut is cooling off. After a little learning curve to get the flame just right, I’m heating her up. Things are going great. I feel like a real welder without the cute little hat. Things are getting hot. I can see the grease bubbling out from the bearing and in a little while it starts to smoke. I trying to move the torch around to get even heat, but when the bearing shield starts to glow no matter where I put the torch, I decide it’s hot enough. Back with the wrench and this time a cheater bar. My dad’s on the bar while I watching things waiting for some movement. He tells me something is giving, but I can’t see the nut turning. Then I see that my coupler nut is beginning to break out just like the last time (see above post).
I’m pissed. I get the hammer and beat on the wrench until the pin finally shears off. OK, I’ve tried to be elegant and sophisticated and do this with the right tool, or some facsimile thereof. Arthur your method may not be elegant, but I’ll concede that if you want brute force, a pipe wrench and a cheater bar is the way to go. So I find my shortest pipe wrench and after dressing the teeth with a file to be sure they bite, I’m ready to give the brute force method a try. It took a little finagling to get the square nut in the right position and the pipe wrench locked onto the nut, but once we got it, we assumed our positions. Dad on the bar and me watching to see if anything moves. Well…
ARTHUR, YOU THE MAN !!!
Here it is. The sorry SOB that has been driving me crazy for the last three days. You can see how beat up the holes are from the pins, and the marks from the pipe wrench. But most importantly you can see that it is off.
So now I pull off the back end of the motor. It didn’t come lose from the armature, and both came off at once. It was then that I saw the mess. Evidently at some point in time grease had been getting past the bearings, probably before the current bearings were put in. This thing is full of grease. In fact when I pulled off the armature it sounded like you were pulling your foot out of the mud. Here’s what it looked like inside.
Here’s what the stator and shaft looked like.
Here’s the front motor housing.
The rear motor housing.
The armature.
Here’s the front bearing. You can see it got a little toasty from the heat.
This thing’s a mess. I bet I pulled five pounds of grease out. Something’s telling me this motor wasn’t running at it’s most efficient.
So, here’s the summary. I don’t know what exactly got the nut off. It could have been the heat, the dry ice, the pipe wrench, or a combination of these. But the pipe wrench was on when it finally broke loose so, Arthur, you get the credit.
As for the grease thing. This has convinced me that I don’t want to risk this again, so I’m going with Arthur’s suggestion of putting sealed for life bearings.
At this point, I hope all the drama is over. I just need to clean up and put it back together with new bearings. I’ll keep you posted with pictures and progress reports.
Stephen,
I've seen that much grease in several of these wood's shaftless motors. That goes back to your earlier question about whether the grease could get through the metal shield on the bearing. It's amazing how much does. It's also amazing that somebody thought it was a good idea to pump that much grease into the motor. The good news is that with some electric parts cleaner, all that grease will come off the windings. The rotor is completely sealed on these motors, so you can clean it up easily. Do go with the sealed bearings. You'll never have another problem. I'll bet that motor runs a little better when you get it back together.
I've seen that much grease in several of these wood's shaftless motors. That goes back to your earlier question about whether the grease could get through the metal shield on the bearing. It's amazing how much does. It's also amazing that somebody thought it was a good idea to pump that much grease into the motor. The good news is that with some electric parts cleaner, all that grease will come off the windings. The rotor is completely sealed on these motors, so you can clean it up easily. Do go with the sealed bearings. You'll never have another problem. I'll bet that motor runs a little better when you get it back together.
OK, I started cleaning things up. I don’t know what electric parts cleaner is, but I figured that if the grease hadn’t damaged anything, then some other petroleum based product wouldn’t either. So, I got a paintbrush and tooth brush and went to work with some kerosene. Things cleaned up pretty easy. I didn’t go crazy and try to get everything pristine, so there’s a little gunk here and there that wouldn’t come off. Here are pictures of everything clean.
Front motor housing
Rear motor housing
Armature
When I went to get the new bearings, I brought the olds ones with me and told the guy that I need replacements. He brought them back, and I started telling him what I was planning to do and did he think it was a good idea? He told me I wanted “sealed” bearings, and the ones I had weren’t sealed. He said on these with the metal shields, they aren’t technically sealed and if they got hot the lubricant would leak out the shields. Any way he brought back these and confirmed that these should last a very long time.
I’ve seen bearings that were wrecked, and the old bearings weren’t that bad. When you turn them you can hear the bearings turning but no grinding or clunking. The only noticeable wear that I could see is the front bearing’s outer race has just a little thrust wiggle when the inner race is held still. I realize that on a 16” blade turning at 3600 rpm, a little wiggle could be a big deal. So I’m hoping that the new bearings will make this saw cut better and keep the blades cleaner and sharper longer.
I forgot to get a picture of the shaft, but it turned out bright and shiney.
Sorry not much suspense here, but at this point I'm spent and just want my saw back.
I’ll let you know how it runs.
Front motor housing
Rear motor housing
Armature
When I went to get the new bearings, I brought the olds ones with me and told the guy that I need replacements. He brought them back, and I started telling him what I was planning to do and did he think it was a good idea? He told me I wanted “sealed” bearings, and the ones I had weren’t sealed. He said on these with the metal shields, they aren’t technically sealed and if they got hot the lubricant would leak out the shields. Any way he brought back these and confirmed that these should last a very long time.
I’ve seen bearings that were wrecked, and the old bearings weren’t that bad. When you turn them you can hear the bearings turning but no grinding or clunking. The only noticeable wear that I could see is the front bearing’s outer race has just a little thrust wiggle when the inner race is held still. I realize that on a 16” blade turning at 3600 rpm, a little wiggle could be a big deal. So I’m hoping that the new bearings will make this saw cut better and keep the blades cleaner and sharper longer.
I forgot to get a picture of the shaft, but it turned out bright and shiney.
Sorry not much suspense here, but at this point I'm spent and just want my saw back.
I’ll let you know how it runs.