Lathes

mystry_tour · Post by **mystry_tour** » Fri May 26, 2006 10:28 pm

good evening junkies
I am in the market for a small lathe for my shop. Would like some recomendations and a reason for it

guzziguy · Post by **guzziguy** » Sat May 27, 2006 8:19 am

what type of applications are you going to use the lathe for? spindle turning or face plate turning?

How often are you going to be turning?

what size work are you planning on turning?

I had quite a bit of turned elements in my work a few years ago (not so much anymore) I managed to do it all on a powermatic 45. They are relatively small and light so they don't take up alot of valuable shop space and can be moved around if need be. You can probably pick one up for around $400-$600.

crzypete · Post by **crzypete** » Sat May 27, 2006 9:06 am

Actually I happen to know from some private correspondence that mystry is checking out metal lathes, trying to become one of us ambidextrous folks.

He sent me this link to this south bend lathe, and debated bidding before it ended.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7621582393

here is my analysis of that lathe- I figure this might be a helpful thread to future lathe hunters.

Hi Mystry, I used to own a similar heavy ten- even had the same tubular base. I have since moved up to a cincinnati lathe that weighs about three times as much. the heavy ten is a great first lathe. It's easy to use and quite versatile. I was amazed at the parts I was able to make.

The way I would look at a machine like that is by accessories. the accessories go for an arm an a leg on eBay, so it is best to find a lathe that is fairly loaded upfront rather than go track down all the extra parts at premium pricing thus ruining your "good deal". I am a bit rusty on the south bend market, but I will venture some guesses. You may want to check completed auctions to see better ideas on pricing.

Things I see it having:
Lever Collet Closer - a really nice plus probably close to $300 by itself
Steady rest- This is the lesser version that south bend made, Maybe $150- $200
Turret- Not quite sure what they sell for, but it might be worth selling off just to offset the price of the lathe. I once sold a turret for a 9" SB for in the $300-$350 range.
Lever feed engage- a nice option, not sellable but user friendly- you would miss it if you didn't have it.

Things I see missing:
Chucks- they could be in the drawers, but that is unknown. Basically you will need a three jaw and an independent 4 jaw. 6" size for both is good. These will probably sell for $75-$150 range on ebay. They have a 2 1/4-8 threaded back.
Collets- for collet closer. You need 5C collets. Hope they are there
Threading dial- a little accessory that is essential to do any threading. It mounts on the side of the carriage and references to the leadscrew. I have no idea what these sell for or if someone makes an after market part, but to thread you need it.
Toolpost- I would factor in $150 to immediately buy a phase II aloris style quickchange toolpost. It will immediately make you a better turner.
Misc- jacobs chuck, bits, live center, dead center, faceplate, all nice things to have- hope they are in the drawers

All in all looking at the auction there are a lot of unknowns . We cannot see the ways- they tend to wear, we do not know what is in the drawers- this could be good, do not know about the condition of the bearings, or the headstock gearing. The belt is not the easiest to replace- you will have to glue one in place- they cost around $30 from plazamachinery.

My analysis: I wouldn't go higher than the $1000 range. You are paying a premium for the south bend name, which can be good if you tend to resell- when you want something bigger. But otherwise there is just too much left unsaid in the auction. If it had the threading dial and chucks I might go higher. Condition does not overly worry me as you are not making parts for nuclear subs.

There are good articles at this site- mainly "in praise of klunkers" and "How to buy a lathe" http://www.mermac.com/

also you will want the book by South bend "how to run a lathe" I am partial to the originals over the reprints that now clog ebay.

Hope this helps. It seems I am overly verbose. Perhaps once the auction ends we can turn this into a thread on the board. If you don't get it we can set a mission of finding you the right lathe at the right price

Good luck

Pete

RossR · Post by **RossR** » Sat May 27, 2006 11:39 am

Well now metal lathes you say....I have been looking slowly for about a year at the smaller metal lathes myself. Pete has some great comments regarding lathes and espically the one listed. Here are a few things I have learned as I search. Southbend the name rasies the price...in general the condition dont matter on them the name drives it up espically on ebay. The lathe in the link has ended but that was one of the cheaper ones I have seen go in the last few months. A coat of paint on that one and it would have brought 300 more just for the paint job. That being said is why I have focused on looking for Logans and sheldons in the same size range. The smaller 10x24 are hard to come by cheap cause lots of guys want them for the home shop. If you have the space there are a lot of Bigger metal lathes out there that can be had pretty chep. But they are big and may not serve your needs. The toolling can be a killer if all you get is a lathe too. From what I have been reading everyone seems to say if you spend $1000 on a lathe with no tooling then be ready to pony up another 800-1000 to get it well tooled. Quick change gears to me are a must. As is a quick change tool post. I have been hesitant on ebay on a few because I couldnt see them before bidding. The ways are of a big concern because you cant really tell how much they are worn without looking.

I am no expert just a guy looking and learning about them as I go so take all i said with a grain of salt. But like pete said if you arent turning things for nasa or sub parts you can get away with a lot.

Ross

Mike Henry · Post by **Mike Henry** » Sat May 27, 2006 12:06 pm

There are plenty of older domestic metalworking lathe brands that make nice additions for a home shop. Clausing, Logan, Sheldon, Rockwell, and Hendey are a few that I considered in the 12" swing and under class. I ended up with a Clausing 5914, mostly because what looked like a decent one turned up locally at reasonable price. At 1,000 lbs or so I figured it was about as much as could be easily moved to the basement shop. It's been a pleasure to use after some issues related to the vari-speed drive were resolved. One issue to keep in mind is the availability of used parts. Clausing still supplies just about all the manuals for their tools and sells most of the parts that typically need replacement. Parts prices range from reasonable to somewhat high. Logan also provides parts but Rockwell parts are very hard to find. Dunno about Sheldon or Hendey.

Mike

mystry_tour · Post by **mystry_tour** » Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

thanks guys,
I am not sure that i will be turning a lot. I was thinking that i might need a few things as my wood working progresses. maybe a few turned things for makeing some jigs later or if i find somethin for the shop I can't live without and can get for a good price that might need a turned part or someone here could need a hand with a simple turned part for something.
I am a machinest by trade but have been in QC fo a cpl years now and miss the tools. I want to get back to some manual stuff because I really enjoy the process of metal working but got dishartened with the CNC stuff. Its a thrill watching a tool touch and a long curl stringing out.
Thats the reason i went to wood working its the cahlange of takeing something and turning it into a useable item and the process.
So I have a good understanding of working at lathes just not with the
differents types or the priceing. I will be greatful with your help in locateing and buying one.
........ambidextrous........i'm glad you spelled it Pete, that way i need just copy and paste lolol

crzypete · Post by **crzypete** » Sun May 28, 2006 4:05 pm

Sheldons and Logans are right in the same league as south bend. I would put Clausing as a step up. Delta/ Rockwell, a step up with potential issues.

I think the first thing that is upgraded on more modern lathes is the spindle not being threaded, but instead having a taper that the chuck sits on. It is a better system than the threaded spindles, but chucks and back plates will cost you more as they are less common. You may have to buy a chuck and a backing plate separately and fit them to each other- this is mainly what I did with my lathe- it only came with a three jaw chuck, a rubberflex collet chuck and a face plate. I have since added a four jaw chuck, a 5C collet chuck, a 6 jaw chuck, a dog-driver plate, and a lever rubberflex chuck. as you can see you can spend a lot of money on getting accessories.

The other thing that you start seeing are hardened ways which can help alleviate the wear and consequent inaccuracy that ensues.

South Bend eventually followed suit with these two advantages, but locating one of these more modern lathes is not easy.

Definitely agree with Ross about the quick change gearing- a necessity. I would also be hardpressed to go back to a lathe that did not have some sort of rapid speed change.

You will be amazed at how much you can do with a simple heavy ten, and you will be surprised at how frequently you use it.

Here is a pic of my lathe after I had just moved it into place- a lot more lathe than a heavy ten, but in the end not that much more money. Still it was a great procession owning the ten first and learning to move up.

Pete

mystry_tour · Post by **mystry_tour** » Sun May 28, 2006 10:11 pm

looks nice pete..so now everyone knows what i'm in the market for along with Ross
Reg

Mike Henry · Post by **Mike Henry** » Sun May 28, 2006 11:01 pm

And here's a picture of my 12x36 Clausing 5914:

It came with the collet closer, bed turret, standard tailstock, standard cross slide depicted here and also a production cross slide. The bed turret has proved surprisingly useful especially with box tools and die heads to turn and externally thread small diameter stock.

These lathes have an L-00 taper and as Pete says faceplates can be pretty expensive - usually $125 and up for used 10-12" sizes. This model has a clutch and brake, which can be pretty handy when feeding long stock through the collet to make mutiple short parts. It also features flame hardened ways and the ones on mine show almost no wear.

I've added a Trav-a-Dial to this one and find that to be a really useful accessory - much better than a bed mounted plunger-type dial indicator.

Mike

mystry_tour · Post by **mystry_tour** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:17 am

nice Mike.....i love watching ships fly from a lathe and fron a fly cutter
getting excited about one

crzypete · Post by **crzypete** » Mon May 29, 2006 8:20 am

I concur with Mike, trav-a-dials are great accessories for a lathe. You can certainly add them on after-market as well, so no need to find a lathe with it pre-mounted.

pete

nektai · Post by **nektai** » Mon May 29, 2006 8:45 am

I wanted to indorse the non South Bend lathe category. I own a Sheldon that can swing 11 and handle almost 36" between centers. I bought the lathe for $1100 with two chucks, collet closer and a bunch of drill chucks. I have added a trav a dial with a custom mount, a Phase two tool-post (cheap but useable import aloris type post), steady rest , a couple of carriage stops, a bunch of 5C collets and new paint. I love this lathe and have enjoyed tangling with the small Sheldon devotees for parts. Some weeks they go high and the next week they go low. I think that the South Bend competition is much more fierce. The one thing I have noticed is that Sheldon lathes go for less that I paid for mine on a regular basis. If you find one that you are interested in let me know as I can give good advice on specific models.

Phase II tool pose with an Aloris holder

Trav-A-Dial

mystry_tour · Post by **mystry_tour** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:52 pm

thats a sweet looking lathe nektai..... it even resembles a SB. I think a travel indicatort is important too especially if your doing any step work or need things pretty accruate to length. I have thought about autiting a class just to get in and doing a little practising on one.

RossR · Post by **RossR** » Tue May 30, 2006 9:07 am

Mystry,

What size lathe specifically are you looking for? I will keep my eyes open for you as well as I search around. Also what price range are you looking for? Feel free to email me offsite if you dont want to answer in public.

BTW some nice looking lathes all you fellows got!!!! I have access to a clausing colchester(friends lathe), 15x48 or so....didnt know how usefull a lathe was till i started using that one. Found lots of things that it has been usefull for I am in the same boat as mystry I may nto do a lot of turning on it but when i need it or want it...it will be a huge assest.

Ross

mystry_tour · Post by **mystry_tour** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:32 am

mmmmmmmmm not real sure Ross. I will ssay around 10X36 wwould do fine. Price......maybe $1500 but it would have to be very nice with attachment galor for that. I am, like I said not falmlar with priceing or the attachments so I will be asking Pete on his advice on what I get he seems pretty up on them. Thanks Ross

RossR · Post by **RossR** » Tue May 30, 2006 2:35 pm

Yep there is a lot of different things about them I am learning as I go. A lot of the attachments depends on what you will be doing with it. But more attachments are never a bad thing

Ross

nektai · Post by **nektai** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:48 am

Because this is a woodworking site I feel I am qualified to try to answer the metal lathe attachment question. I hope that the real metalworkers will correct me if I give bad advice.

There are two attachments that need to be considered at the time of purchase. They are;

Taper attachment; If you need the ability to turn tapers over a few inches in length you must buy a lathe with the taper attachment. This ability requires changes to the lathes carriage and the required parts rarely show up as they are more part of the lathe than an accessory. (I do not have a taper attachment on my lathe and i do not miss it for the work i have done.)

Collet closer; I have the notion that 5C collet closers are kind of custom made for every lathe and as a result are very expensive to buy new so the used market is very competitive. I waited to find a lathe that had one with it but i had to purchase the 5C collets separately at auction.

After you consider weather you need either of the above items consider weather your lathe has any of the following items as they can be hard to find later because they are specific to the lathe that you buy.

Top of this part of the list is a Steady rest. You can expect one of these to fetch around $300 on ebay so consider it a real bonus if it comes with your lathe.

A threading dial is lathe specific and should come with the lathe. You will definitely need one.

Carriage stop is a nice thing to have and since it is lathe specific can cost up to $100 to buy later.

A follower rest for turning slender work. I would like one to "complete" my Sheldon but have not been able to find one for less than $250.

Finally there is a class of accessory that are not specific to one make or size of lathe.

The quick change tool post with holders heads this class. An Aloris tool-post and holders can fetch allot of money. I use a cheap import version of the Aloris that I bought for $100 new with 5 holders. It is based on the Aloris post and I even have some Aloris tooling that I use on it. (A metal worker might scoff at this but it is more than adequate for this Woodworker)

Chucks are essential and can be quite expensive is purchased on ebay. If your lathe has a 3 jaw and a 4 jaw chuck you are in business.

The same is true of a face plate and dog driver.

Drill chucks round out the accessory search and are probably to easiest to find later.

Good luck and have fun with the search

mr douglas t · Post by **mr douglas t** » Wed May 31, 2006 8:04 am

Nico provided a complete and detailed list. I would like to list my opinion on the top three accessories.
First is a 3 jaw chuck.
Second is a 4 jaw chuck
third is a quick change tool post.

Other things lika a taper attachment and a collet closer are nice, but you can get by for a long time with out them. My top three are needed right away, in order to do any turning at all.

mystry_tour · Post by **mystry_tour** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:10 pm

ok sounds like a plan....one question.....if I have a 4 jaw chuck why would I need a 3 jaw chuck

nektai · Post by **nektai** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:42 pm

I am not sure if what I am about to say is always true but in my experience it is has been. A three jaw chuck has jaws that scroll together to grab a round part and accurately center it. A four jaw chuck has jaws that can be independently adjusted for holding odd shaped work. A four jaw chuck can also center round stock but a dial indicator is needed so the setup time is much greater than that of a three jaw (it can also be more accurate than a three jaw).